Justifying the Ways of God to Man
In Paradise Lost, Milton attempts to justify the ways of God to man. One of the arguments he must have considered runs as follows
- God is perfectly good
- God is omnipotent
- Evil exists
ergo: God does not exist
(in logic, if it can be shown that any assertion is incorrect or incompatible with any of the other assertions upon which an argument is based, the conclusion must also be false).
In the argument above, if God is all-powerful, but does not choose to get rid of evil, then he cannot be perfectly good; if God is perfectly good, but he is not able to rid the world of evil, he is not omnipotent. In either case, philosophers have argued, God--at least an omnipotent, perfectly loving one--is not compatible with the assertion that evil exists.
What do you think? How well does Milton do in dealing with this argument in Paradise Lost?
posted by Carson | 8:09 PM
20 Comments:
Well, it could be argued that Milton's version of God does not exist, but another version that would allow such things, or that Milton has the story all wrong in the first place and there is no Satan, just the boogie man parents tell their children so they dont sin. Yet, God could have been all good, in that he doesn't have the heart to destroy the evil because he thinks everything should have a chance to live and choose right, or maybe he still thinks that evil will realise that it is wrong and turn good again.
In Paradise Lost however, I have to feel a little sorry for Lucifer because of the way it is portrayed, God's a pretty nasty tempered fellow. He throws his 'kids' out the door for rising up against him and sends them to live in hell. Yet as Lucifer says (paraphrasing this) 'It's better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven' as in, he would rather have free choice and live miserably than live in happiness and do everything God says without question. He also mentions something along the lines of 'everyone agrees that I should rule' which makes Hell seem pretty nice for a small part. But that's just me, a person who absolutely values the freedom I have, whether it be just an illusion or not.
-Bekki
however if you think about it it was not God that created evil pre se, he allowed free wil to exist thus man and many other creations created evil. In order to get rid of evil, God would have to do away with free will; thus ultimately landing us with no real reason for life. All of us would be perfect and life would be very very boring.
about God locking away the evil, isn't it true that tons of people have stories about demons doing them harm, or causing harm, or tempting them? so isn't it safe to say that he didn't actually lock them away, since if he did this wouldn't happen, although people could just be stupid and blame demons when it's their own fault, making demons the universal scapegoats of man kind. Maybe they aren't really evil, we just created them to be so we could blame someone for spilt milk and bad crops.
Bekki
people have demons tempting them sure, but if any one paid attention to moral law or the Bible they would know that God says Satan will try to lure people away and if they still do not sin they will go to heaven, i think the bottom line is we have a choce to do evil, if no one committed evil acts, then evil would not exist thus; eliminating this argument.
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i guess this argument has died. awwwwwwwwwww too bad i was just getting started. :(
If you want to keep it up give us a point to argue!
Bekki
how could God not exist?
Did I say that? O-o
Maybe God as we see him doesn't exist, it's hard to be sure really unless you... well, die... but since that's not an option..
The first encounters with god would not have been written down right away. It would have been told by word of mouth because not every one would be able to read or write exactly what happened. For those of you who have played train before you know that it is almost impossible to get the original message when you are the last person in line. Sometimes people like altering the stories to fit their own village or people or even beliefs. So while some might say that... er... a new god started up in saskatchewan, it was actually half way around the world or something like that. What we know today may not be what it started out as.
There's also the 'lost in translation' thing. When translating ancient texts to modern languages some bits or things may be lost despite the best attempts to keep all information
Bekki
yes but how do you exlpain that 90% of all the stuff in the Bilbe is back up by history books, ie; yes Jesus existed, yes he was killed and yes he was seen and belongings were found of him later on. I myself was very skeptical until I read all of the research.
as far as word of mouth goes, some of teh greatest stories and songs of all time were passed down by word of mouth and are the same, to a tee if you will, in different languages all over the world. So if that was true then about songs, why wouldn't it be true of the word of God.
also God "inspired" people, for lack of a better word, to write His book; how could so many people write so many different things and have everything correspond with the other when most of them weren't even around at the same time.
I agree that much of what is in the bible could have actually happened in the past. But how did people pass down information before? Through song and story, because people (especially little children) are more likely to pay attention to that than actual history. So the bible could be a collection of historical documents (sort of) that was collaborated to cary on history becuase someone realised that stuff would be forgotten and thought not to exist.
As for God inspiring man... why would he? In the words of someone (not sure who) 'If you do it right, they'll think you've done nothing at all' Why inspire man to take on religion and himself if it caused wars and massive death? People to this day fight and argue just because they are differently religious. People who are not some well known highly accepted religion are told they are going to go to hell if they don't convert, which if everyohne believed in there would be mass histeria. In past times wars were more likely fought over a religion and the *right* religion than other matters. People were put to death by flame, hanging, quartering and other gross executions because they did not believe in what the monarch did. Even in ancient Egypt, after a pharoh died if he did not believe in what his successor did his face was wiped off of temples, documents and sometimes his own tomb. Why inspire man to believe in you if it is going to cause all this trouble?
The only answer I can come up with off the top of my head is that we have one very odd diety where ever they are.
For that matter, look at the "christian" countries. Are they not amoung the most wealthy in the world? God said (through people in the Bible) that he would take care of His people.
so what? everyone should just drop their religions and become christian because it's 'right'? Christians, if I'm not mistaken were put into arenas, pits,etc, with wild, starved lions, or other animals or glaiators that killed them in roman times. And some were nailed to a cross. It doesn't exactly seem like God does much help for his people there.
Just because they are the richest countries does not necessarily mean god is watching over them. Isn't Christianity one of like the top three religions in the world? It's wide spread, that's like saying to be rich you have to be american, chinese or British. It doesn't necessarily have to do with god, it has to do with industry and how long they've been a country and such. There are countries in Africa which are third world where christianity is the main religion, because someone brought it in, yet they are still poor and dying every day. If God helps his people why isn't he helping those in actual need instead of those who can help themselves?
The richest countries in the world tend to have something every one else wants. Like... electronics, becuase it would be just *so* bad if a family doesn't have a game system... (why is that anyways? I grew up without one..) Becuase the other countries want what the other countries have they trade, since invading is supposed tobe a thing of the past. Iraq and Iran I believe are some really big oil countries and they were rich-ish up until America went looking for weapons of mass destruction. So would you suggest that god is punishing them just because they dont believe in him?
I don't see how a person could possibly be blamed for having doubts. We're in an age of science and technology, a time where almost everything is possible and has to be proven to most before they believe in it. Given the fact that we were given the freedom of choice (or at least illusion of it) why should we be blamed for what we do with it? We aren't all knowing like Him or Her or whatever you may believe in. Unknown causes doubt, doubt causes fear and fear causes choices that aren't always good. What else could a human be expected to do?
Bekki
A human, as you say, can be expected to believe, and to do the greater good. Those countries where people are dying everyday are getting better as more and more people go out of their way to help them. I'm going on a mission trip myself this summer to help those people. Generally people who doubt the existance of God, have not really tried to find Him. everyone I've ever met that committed them selves to finding God, was healed(siritually) the whole idea behind God, is that it doesn't matter if you die physically as long as you believe, you will live spiritually forever.
p.s i appriciate your imput in disuccing this with me and i think you should look in to being a lawyer or lobbyist, you have a flair for persuasion(that's spelt wrong i know it)
O_o ERm, thanks for the compliment but I do have beliefs myself, that's why I can argue it ( as a lawyer I'd never survive)
Sure people are helping them in lesser countries but alot of people in the rich countries are getting obese, why isn't god smitting them with something other than weight gain and health problems? People would listen more if he did.
It's easy to say that God exists if you were brought up in a religious but there are those who are brought up atheist. Of course the first few years of life, how we are brought up, can greatly effect us for the rest of our lives. If you were brought up to not belive or, heaven forbid, to do bad right from the cradle, you can't exactly help it. We learn from those around us, sometimes getting tikked at social standings and shucking them aside to kick butt (I've done it a few times), how tointeract with other people by watching our parents and family, then other students as we go to school and through life. But for those of us brought up without a religon (like me) it's really hard to believe all of what the bible says or what god is exactly. Little kids are told that God is both male and female yet he's always refered to as male. Yes, I realise that switching his gender mid story would be confusing, but why tell the kids that? And the ten commandments... erm.. when was the last time people loved their neighbours? Or the honouring thy mothe rand father, it is rarer today to see a teen honouring them in any way. It's just the way our civilization is, everyone has the right to pertty much anything, but as a teen you still have to obey your parents, when the two conflictthough the teen would rather choose freedom over honouring. Then there's the line "What thou hold true on earth, I will hold true in heaven" (that's gotta be paraphrasing) If that's true then why obey the ten commandments? The idea would to be obey societies laws or your own heart not stuff written two thousand years ago that can hardly be held completely to today. Like, less than a quarter of North American couples wait until after marrage to have sex... does that mean they're going to hell? Along with a bunch of my friends who are bastards because of being born out of wedlock? and then Limbo, for those of us who haven't been babtised? It's hard to believe in a system that is sending you to hell for things that are sort of not even your choice. Or for pretty much everything you've ever done. Hmmm... how many sins have I comited? ... anyways...
Bekki
well i was raised as an athiest and have recently, out of my own free will, took a different path. if one was to pay attention to the whole bible and not just the ten commandments they would see that all the health inflictions that people can controll, ie heart disease, obesity ect, wouldn't happen if they lived, worked and ate the way the bible shows.
That's not a proven fact though. Just having words written down in a book that command people to obey them doesn't work. The whole system is well.. flawed for our day and age of scientific research. Curiosity killed the cat and it's going to kill us most likely. The big problems arise when someone says 'God is all merciful' or 'god will forgive you for your sins' if there's a hell, he isn't about to forgive you. Cause you did wrong in the first place but considering the fact that he created us with our own choice (whether it be an illusion or not) what right does he have to have a hell and send us there for not believing in him... did i make that point already? *mutters*
The bible I could see as maybe a suggestion, yes, if everyone only had sex after they were married, to their spouse then there would be no aids, but then the homosexuals would still be insane without rights. Same with women. We got the vote because countries didn't honour their neighbors. Where would we be without sins? Stuck bare foot in the kitchen and pregnant in the winter that's where. Not exactly a great thing for someone like me who can't even be told to shut up without screaming. How would our health be all that much better? half the children died before they were sick from diseases that God wouldn't prevent, not that I'm blaming him but it's still a fact. You obey the bible you can live great to a certain extent but it's not going to save you from the Black Death or Small Pox because they weren't transmitted through sex or through dishonouring your neighbor (unless you were stealing from him while he was sick and caught it) they're air born diseases.
One could however argue that God sent the illnesses to kill those who had sined, but how has a baby sinned? In that case why is the human civilization still existing? We are all supposed to be born with Original Sin, that can somehow magically be washed away with a measily babtism. Yeah, I've got this fear of trusting other people while they dunk me.
Anyways. The ways laid down in the bible are supposed to be those of a utopia(sp?) and the human mind just can't live in a place like that. While it may be a utopia for most it won't be for a whole. What about the darker, angsty souls who need that sort of release? Do they just curl up and cry themselves to death because they can't do what they need to?
Bekki
That is the whole poitn people think that God will condemn you, He only does that if you don't repent
and that isn't just saying sorry, its doing something wrong and learnig from what you did while trying not to do it again. honestly even if someone doesn't believe in God, the christian life itself is one of the best ways to live, it's based on trust love and forgiveness hoestly I cant think of ne thing better than that
lest you forget,it was man who started this whole sin bussiness in the beginning.
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